Craig speaks with Robert Hayes, CEO of the North American arm of Danish jewellery brand Pilgrim. The discussion includes how Hayes brought the brand into the market, what makes it so popular, wholesale expansion, and what’s in store for new locations in Canada in the coming years including one at CF Toronto Eaton Centre opening in late June.
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Featured during this interview:
- Robert Hayes, CEO / Owner of Pilgrim North America Inc.
- Pilgrim North America Inc.
Transcript
Craig Patterson
Welcome to the Retail Insider video series. I’m your host, Craig Patterson. And we’re joined here today with a special guest, Robert Hayes. He’s the CEO of jewelry brand, Pilgrim. You’re the CEO of the North American Division. Welcome.
Robert Hayes
Thank you so much. I’m so excited to be here.
Craig Patterson
Now Robert, tell us a little bit about Pilgrim.
Robert Hayes
Yeah so, basically Pilgrim is a Danish brand that was established over 40 years ago. And Pilgrim is synonymous with recycling. So over 60% of all of our products are made from recycled materials. And we’re actually working towards getting over 100% of our products to be sustainable and recyclable. We’ve also been working with all of our suppliers in terms of, you know, the back end of, of how to be, you know, more green and more circular. We’re also starting a recycling program. And one of the great things about Pilgrim too, is that all of our jewelry is hypoallergenic. So it’s perfect for all types of people who might normally have sensitivities to different jewelries.
Craig Patterson
And the price point is pretty good, too. I was having a look on the website, and it seems pretty affordable.
Robert Hayes
Exactly. So one of the, you know, that Scandinavian kind of essence of really trying to provide kind of, you know, fair pricing for products. So some of them work really hard to do, and to bring real value to customers. And also as well, to our wholesale partners as well. So it’s, it’s something that we work really hard on.
Craig Patterson
And there’s there’s necklaces and earrings and rings, and what other categories are there for Pilgrim.
Robert Hayes
So we also do sunglasses, so we have a polarized UV 400 sunglasses, and they’re also made out of water bottles that are collected from the ocean. And it’s about 1.2 water bottles per sunglasses. So people really like that. And one of the things that I love too, is that if by accident, a wave hits, and they’re gone, it’s kind of like returning it back to where the cycle started again, right? And it wasn’t that expensive. So you’re not afraid to you know, kind of bust the bank, on your sunglasses.
Craig Patterson
Now, you’ve got some retail stores, you started in the province of Quebec, how’s that going so far
Robert Hayes
It’s going really well, actually, we’ve had an amazing response. I know the malls are not too open in terms of sharing sales per square foot. But on the odd time you get, you know, the the mall managers in a good mood, they’ll share those numbers. And we can see that, you know, we’re ranking pretty well within the malls. And we’re also bringing in like a different type of demographic. So some of the larger mall companies, you know, they’ve got these programs where they can really analyze who’s coming into their centers. And they can see from that data that the Pilgrim customer is maybe somebody who wasn’t traditionally coming into the center to buy their jewelry, and now they are so for them, they’re really happy. And it’s kind of adding to the basket size, and it’s actually growing the percentage or the commodities within the malls rankings. So for them, they’re really happy. So traditional, kind of, you know, bridge jewelry, which would be you know, Pandora or Swarovski are not seeing necessarily a drop in their business. And so for the malls are really excited about that, because it’s almost like it’s something new that’s coming into the mall for them. And that’s why I think for us so far, we haven’t had very much competition in that segment. And, and we seem to be kind of really clearing kind of our own path within the malls segment at this time.
Craig Patterson
Which malls are you in so far in Quebec, and I think you’ve got one in Ontario and soon to
Robert Hayes
Exactly, yeah, so we started off our first was Place Montreal Trust. Then we opened 30 discount. Then we opened a CF Carrefour Laval. Then we did a Galeries de la Capitale Mall, and then we did CF Rideau center.
Craig Patterson
Excellent. Now you’ve got one coming up here at the CF Toronto Eaton Center, which is the was at least before the pandemic, the busiest mall I certainly in North America, maybe even the world.
Robert Hayes
Yes. So we’re so excited about that. And, you know, we couldn’t have done it originally without you know, Sydney pulled from Cadillac Fairview, you know, she really took kind of that risk with us and coming to the office when we’re just a wholesale brand was Chanel, her colleague, and really seeing who we were and, and analyzing that and then kind of putting us on the path towards retail. So we’ve been very fortunate to have that partnership with Cadillac Fairview, and also the fact that they really look at young emerging brands and companies because even though we’re from Denmark, you know, I bought the distribution rights for Canada. And so, you know, seeing kind of young talent and kind of the team that we built around, Cadillac Fairview kind of took the plunge with us and we’ve been very fortunate.
Craig Patterson
Excellent is there now that story is gonna be a little bit different. There’s going to be I think ear piercing and or piercing general and a few other things.
Robert Hayes
Exactly. So in our other stores, we’ve been kind of testing, you know, the ear piercing concept. And then for this location, we’ve decided to go, you know, substantially larger and really provide a piercing studio, one of the things we do is the needle thread piercing, so instead of doing the gun piercing, so it actually is a less painful, it’s a cleaner, piercing, and it heals faster, and there’s less likelihoods of infection. So it’s a more kind of elevated experience. And then also, through our research, we found out that there’s no real, you know, kind of government agencies or real kind of training, it’s usually you know, person A, teaches person B, and then it’s like, good luck, you know, with the gun. And then for us, we actually, you know, do almost a two week intensive training course, we actually work with a company from France, because in France, it’s actually very, like, regulated in terms of how piercings are done. So we’re actually able to utilize kind of those standards and bring those over here to Canada and, and try to really give it something completely different than your traditional kind of, you know, either going to a tattoo parlor, or you know, going to kind of a mall kiosk and getting your ears pierced.
Craig Patterson
Great once once the I think that opening party, or when’s the opening date roughly for that new Toronto store.
Robert Hayes
So we’re planning on opening on Thursday, June 29, at around 3pm. And we’re planning to host a big party, we DJ we also looking to do ear piercing, for free, as well as doing nails, because one of the things that we found is when people whenever they put on rings, sometimes they don’t want to show off their fingers, because their nails are not necessarily done. So I think you know, to get the buzz and kind of that social media element of it, we’ll have somebody being able to do people’s nails so that when they try on our rings, there’ll be really comfortable to kind of show them off on social media. And one of the thing that’s really cool of about our rings, just as kind of a side file is that all of our rings are adjustable. So you know, if you have a glass of wine, and then all of a sudden, you know your fingers swell up a little bit, you can actually readjust them. And then also what we love to when we hear back from our clients too is those clients who you know, are recently pregnant, all of a sudden, you know, their fingers changed a little bit during pregnancy, they can readjust their rings. And so they love that so that there’s so much versatility within their jewelry, and they don’t have to go up or down a size they can keep the peace they have.
Craig Patterson
That’s amazing. I didn’t know you could do that with rings. I didn’t realize fingers were swelling as well. But I don’t worry about since the divorce. Yeah, that’s a whole nother conversation. But how did you get involved? You mentioned that you you bought the rights. Did you have a jewelry background before or where did you come from in terms of the business world?
Robert Hayes
Yeah, so I was working for a brand called BestSeller. And I was one of the first employees of that company in Canada. And I was working for Manon and Michael Muirhead and basically was responsible for their retail expansion in the beginning. And so I was with the success of the retail in the beginning, I was offered an international role in Denmark. And then while I was living in Denmark, my cousin was working for Doctors Without Borders. And so she came to visit me. And so while she was visiting me, she was like, ah, we’ve got to stop at this cool store called Pilgrim because they do this Doctors Without Borders collection and all my colleagues would like to get, you know, some necklaces, and she wanted to bring them back as gifts. So that’s kind of how I discovered the brand. And then while visiting multiple shops, because unfortunately not each shop, you know, had enough quantities for what she needed. I was really able to see kind of the fact that you know, the Pilgrim customer is coming all different souls, and different and there’s no real age. And so I thought, wow, this is so cool that somebody like in their 60s can work Pilgrim but then you also had customers that were 12,13, 15 and 16 wearing Pilgrim and so it’s so cool in that regard. And and I remember when we started Jack and Jones and Bermuda in the beginning, that was one of the strengths of the brand is that it had no age, and that everybody could kind of wear it in their own way. And so by doing a little bit of research, I found out that the brand was not carried in Canada. And and then Annemette was kind of you know, who’s the founder of the company and who still to this day designs all of the jewelry, and is very much involved. I wasn’t sure because I was a really young guy. And she was like, I’m not sure and all this so I asked her I said can I borrow some jewelry rolls? And she said, Okay, and so I borrowed the rolls, jumped on the plane, headed to Canada, met with Simon’s and showed them the collection and they were just like, wow, this is so cool. It’s so neat. And so they give me kind of a first order. So then I went back to Denmark placed the order and kind of from there it was decided that we would step forward and move forward. And today, you know, we have 56 employees working here in Canada. And they’re in the process currently of hiring many more. So we’ve been very fortunate, very lucky to, you know, have built such a kind of loyal following.
Craig Patterson
Now La Maison Simon’s was a wholesale partner or stock list, however you want to call it. Tell me about the wholesale business now, because you’ve developed that in Canada as well.
Robert Hayes
Exactly. So we right now, wholesale represents about 52% of our business, we have a well over 300 active customers, which represent 556 doors across the country. And it’s a business that’s really expanding and doing very well for us. And our retail strategy is to balance that, you know, I think in the past, many companies were very quick to expand very quickly. And they didn’t understand the power of that local partner who understands their market. So I think where we plan to open our stores, and you know, I spoke about this on the article with, you know, the 30 locations, it’s really an areas where there are not a lot of wholesale partners. And so I want to be very strategic in terms of where I open not to, you know, mitigate or take away from the business that we are building and wholesale and the structure that we’re doing, but at the same time to in those malls, be able to give the service and kind of the experience that someone might not be able to get online. And really a big connection with the brand. So it’s kind of finding that balance. And that’s something that, you know, I would like to do that maybe I wasn’t able to accomplish, you know, what, in my past career, and my past job. And so for me, it’s, you know, very important to have that wholesale element, and that and they are the ones who push the brand forward. Because when you have 300 plus partners telling you what’s good, what’s not good, it makes you have the best collection possible, and a real reading of the Canadian market from coast to coast.
Craig Patterson
That’s very interesting. I’d like to discuss in terms of angle. Now, of course, you mentioned we’ve mentioned that you’re gonna be opening at CF Toronto Eaton Centre in Toronto, in terms of say, the long term plans over the next five years, can you share anything about to say 30 stores? If you’re looking at any market? So would it be a coast to coast from Vancouver to Nova Scotia type of movement, or tell me a bit about what you might have planned there?
Robert Hayes
Absolutely. So I think what I want to do is make sure that I do this very strategically. And I want to enter the markets kind of slow and steady. So I know a lot of brands have a tendency to open like you know, a little bit all across across the country, I want to work my way across the country where we properly understand the market before we enter it. And then when we do enter it with marketing have the right availability for the customers in terms of where they can find the product. So I think for for the next two years, our plan is really you know, GTA and then moving kind of the rest of Ontario, and then we’re going to probably catapult ourselves all the way to British Columbia, and then from British Columbia work our way, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and then probably last would be the Maritimes because it’s actually one of our strongest wholesale markets. I don’t, you know, necessarily I really good partners here. And I also see that there’s a little bit of opportunity within the shopping centers, you know, they haven’t quite modernized like they have, you know, in the rest of Canada, and I feel that that independent customer is so strong in the Maritimes that I think that that would probably be one of the last places that we would open shops.
Craig Patterson
Would you say shopping centers? So we’ll obviously that’s the primary expansion. Do you ever see any street front locations for Pilgrim in Canada?
Robert Hayes
I’m not sure because they think that that’s a space where our wholesale partners, you know, really cover well. And I know when we have customers that can do you know, a full shop and shop, you know, 600 square feet of Pilgrim it’s the same exposure that they would get if we were to do the same kind of thing. But they had that local buyer, that local connection with someone who really understands that market and they often can sell much more than we could at you know, a corporate level. So it’s leveraging their know how and also us sharing our market know how and our merchandising standards and then leveraging their local experience.
Craig Patterson
Now you’ve got the rights for North America. Is there an American expansion at play for Pilgrim any plans in the next little while?
Robert Hayes
Absolutely. But step number one is to properly do it in Canada, and then from because people don’t realize how Yes, we are neighbours. Yes, we are brothers and sisters with the United States. But we really are two unique markets. And I had the opportunity in my old company to really learn that and and I really want us to solidify the Canadian market before entering into the United States market. I feel like also some firms in the US market, it’s, uh, they see, you know, European and Canadian brands and some take advantage of but, you know, there’s always that big learning curve that has to be done. And sometimes you don’t necessarily get, you know, the fair end of the stick. And I feel the same way for us. You know, I have friends, you know, who are Americans who are opening here, and some and sometimes I look at their lease, you know, rates and my lease rates, and they’re not the same. So sometimes there’s preferential things that are given to Canadian brands and vice versa. So I just want to make sure that we when we go in, we do it properly, and that we’ve have all of our research done, and that we really are properly segmented. Now in wholesale, we have about 38 customers currently right now in the United States. And now that COVID has finished, you know, when we go to the Toronto gift fair, we tend to meet more and more American customers are now returning back to the fairs and having opportunities to open them. So I think for the time being, we’ll probably start slowly, with Wholesale, when we meet those customers at the different trade shows.
Craig Patterson
Excellent. Now, how is how are things online in terms of web sales and whatnot.
Robert Hayes
So our web sales are constantly growing, I just feel that the challenge with web and I know this from a lot of people is that it’s very difficult to turn a profit online, you know, it’s always like, what comes first the chicken or the egg, and you’re always pumping a lot of money into the online versus, you know, with the stores, I’m able to turn a decent profit. And I feel like landlords today understand that it’s a win win, where, you know, everybody eats everybody’s comfortable. And I think that there probably is going to be a reckoning, you know, online, because there’s a lot of kind of unfair practices that are happening online, it’s kind of a bit the Wild West as we know. And so even, you know, with conversations with the BBC, they struggle to find retailers that actually turn a decent profit with the online business. And as soon as you hit a new level, online, all of a sudden, you have to invest significantly more amounts of money in salaries, and the recipe seems to change every month. So you know, if you found the right recipe for certain while, then you have to pivot and then flip and then change. And, and it always seems that, you know, certain kinds of big media companies and social media companies seem to constantly make the money, but they don’t constantly share how they’re pivoting and changing, you know, the all the different algorithms. So it’s a challenge, you know, but it’s somewhere you have to be, and you have to participate, and you have to work on but even huge brands, you know, that I, you know, my old company, you know, the old company, you know, own the old, my old boss, you know, used to own portions of Zalando. And, and he saw us, you know, they to also struggle to make money even on the on the large scale. So, it’s definitely something where, you know, I don’t think enough business owners are honest about the challenges that they’re having online. And I think that, you know, bankers and different people are starting to understand that when they look and realize, like, wow, you spend that much money to burn just that little amount. And you almost have to, you know, give your blood and your firstborn baby to kind of make it happen.
Craig Patterson
It’s a good thing. It’s a good endorsement for brick and mortar retail, though, fascinating conversation around online versus physical store.
Robert Hayes
Absolutely. And even during the pandemic, you know, even though we’re still seeing crazy growth online, we still saw significant growth and brick and mortar, I think if you offer an experience, if you’re actually unique, and you listen to your customers, people want to come and shop, you know, the average customer at Pilgrim shops every four months. And we see you know, the return rate is significant. And so if you can actually properly connect and bring back that level of service and not have you know, the, the, you know, the salesperson sitting on her phone, behind the cash desk, and not really passionately caring about the process, then people won’t come back. But if you actually do something that’s unique and different, and you properly connect with the customer, they will come back and they will be loyal. And I feel like today people are significantly more loyal than they weren’t even five years ago. And our wholesale customers see that as well. You know, we can look at data. And especially, you know, nowadays with loyalty programs, you can really dive into the data. And we’re noticing that kind of across the board that loyalty, especially for us maybe with jewelry is becoming something that we didn’t expect or didn’t see, you know, pre pandemic. So that’s an interesting trend.
Craig Patterson
This has been a fascinating conversation. I’ve got Robert Hayes. He’s the CEO of the North American Division of Danish jewelry brand, Pilgrim, thank you so much for joining us here today, Robert.
Robert Hayes
Thank you so much. It was such a pleasure, and I’m a really big fan.
Craig Patterson
I’m looking forward to the store opening at CF Toronto Eaton center. I’ll be there. And I’m Craig Patterson. I’m the founder of Retail Insider. I’m also the host of the Retail Insider interview series and publisher of Retail Insider Media Limited thank you so much everyone for joining us here today whether or not you’re doing this on video or whether or not you’re on here through our podcast channel take care and bye for now
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